Craigslist HTML limits could doom flashy listings
Spammers embed fake links, keywords in ads
By Matt Carter, Monday, June 9, 2008.Bookmarking Sites
The online classified service craigslist is contemplating restrictions on HTML formatting to combat cloaked spam links and embedded false keywords in ads -- a move that could also make it harder to create slick-looking property listings using third-party applications like vFlyer and postlets.
The proposal to limit the use of HTML to a few basic tags could limit the ability of all craigslist users to create visually sophisticated ads that format information in ways that are easier to grasp, and has sparked a lively debate on the site.
"I love HTML," says one craigslist user posting on a forum created for discussion of the proposal. "I am a professional and I like to launch one or two postlets a week. They really stand out and help me sell my houses."
But many craigslist users object to ads that employ sophisticated coding, because they may contain cloaked links that unwittingly take users to commercial sites, or clutter search results with false keywords. Those fears can also lead users to "flag" posts they consider suspicious for removal -- even when they are perfectly legitimate.
"The 'community' seems to prefer short, simple, and bland, unattractive postings anyway," said another craigslist user who favors limits on the use of Hypertext Markup Language (HTML). "While I don't agree with the belief that HTML is the spawn of the devil (I personally like the way it can enhance a posting), I think it should be prohibited, if for nothing else, to reduce 'the community's' abuse of the completely arbitrary, archaic and anarchistic flagging system incorporated by (craigslist)."
Craigslist already prohibits the use of third-party posting services to post ads to the site on behalf of clients or automate the process.
But many real estate professionals use services like vFlyer and postlets to create customized craigslist ads. The services format listing data into ads that can contain multiple pictures, generating HTML code that is cut-and-pasted to craigslist by the user. Although clients of such services must manually create their craigslist ads and respond to confirmation e-mails from the site, vFlyer and postlets simplify the process of making visually appealing ads.
Craigslist is considering banning all but a set of basic HTML tags, which would allow users to only do simple text formatting, such as bold and italicized words, and create headers, lists and simple tables. Links to external images would also be allowed.
Postlets co-founder Asher Matsuda said the company's listing templates make heavy use of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) to control fonts, colors, background, layout and other design aspects. CSS would no longer be supported under the current craigslist proposal, but postlets could still do much of what it does today using standard HTML tags, Matsuda said in an e-mail exchange with Inman News.
For postlets, the key issue -- and what makes the proposed changes challenging to work with -- is the restriction on allowed attributes and values within the tags, Matsuda said.
For example, while the font tag is supported, craigslist users would no longer be able to control typefaces such as Arial and Verdana, and would have only a dozen or so colors to work with, he said.
"Not the end of the world, but you're stuck with Times New Roman and lose about 16 million color options," Matsuda said.
Table row and column tags are supported, but you can't control their dimensions, alignment of things inside them, background colors and some other attributes, Matsuda said. CSS is critical for controlling layout and positioning, he said, adding, "This one hurts."
"I can't think of any obvious or simple workarounds," Matsuda said. "The proposed spec, if accepted in its current form, will severely limit everyone's ability to create a highly stylized post. We'll just have to adapt, do our best to work with what they give us and make some lemonade."
Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster said that while the company's primary impetus for establishing HTML limits is spam control, "the vast majority of craigslist users do not appreciate heavily styled postings, and that aversion needs to be considered when making judgments about how much HTML to allow."
Buckmaster said craigslist does "want to be as accommodating as possible to all our users, and will do our best to balance conflicting feedback."
Aaron Sperling, the co-founder and chief executive officer of vFlyer, said that he's sympathetic to craigslist's attempts to limit spammers. In the past, he said, craigslist has made smaller, incremental changes -- like removing certain background tags and color combinations to prevent false keywords to be hidden by placing white text on a white background -- without consulting users.
"In the past, there was no proposal process -- they just made the changes, and we would (make adjustments) to make sure our content remained as high-fidelity as possible," Sperling said.
Now, Sperling said, craigslist "must really be up against the wall in fighting spam" to be suggesting such sweeping changes. "We understand some of the problems and motivations behind this; we just hope craigslist can come up with other ways to combat spam without pulling back on all these capabilities."
Sperling said one thing that separates craigslist from rival online classified sites like Kijiji is that it has fewer restrictions on HTML usage.
Whatever craigslist does, it won't affect the listings that vFlyer syndicates to other sites like Zillow, Trulia and GoogleBase, Sperling said.
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Submitted by David Sherfey on June 9, 2008 - 5:19am.
I don't think you need the flashy presentation on Craigslist to get attention. If you can write great ad copy and take great photos, a simply formatted craigslist ad is enough to generate interest in a listing. The trick is to have a destination for the reader to go to for more information on the property.
It's inexpensive today, and easy, to control your own content on the internet and have as many websites as you like to send people to for more information. You don't need to know a thing about html, with software like Dreamweaver and Expression Web. It helps, but is not absolutely necessary. I ran EW for six months creating property websites for our sellers before learning anything about html.
Just buy yourself a an inexpensive hosting plan with any one of many suppliers out there, get a url for the house, create a site for the property and upload. Use the url anywhere you can (truliazillowetc) to send interested buyers to YOUR content. This is tons less expensive than print advertising, and it works to sell houses.
The "plain" Craigslist ads we create, using no more html than what is described on the craigslist proposal - drives buyers to our sites quite nicely. It's a little more work, but it is certainly a value add for the seller, which is always a good thing you can use to differentiate yourself from your competition.
Submitted by Karen Rice on June 9, 2008 - 5:41am.
Personally, I think the plain ads are just fine on CraigsList. Real estate agents tend to LOVE to be "flashy" to the point of tacky - just look at many of their websites. I think that in a community like CraigsList, LESS is DEFINITELY more -use good pictures, write compelling copy and you're set.
Northeast PA / Pike & Wayne County Real Estate
Lake Wallenpaupack Real Estate Website
Submitted by Todd Anderson on June 9, 2008 - 6:12am.
I have to say that I love the ease of posting real estate ads to Craigslist using Postlets. I can understand both sides of this issue and the majority of Craigslist is just line ads with limited photos and lack of "flashy" ads. The article seems to show that Postlets and VFlyer will make whatever adjustments necessary to make their services viable. The fact that Craigslist has put this out as a proposal rather than just making the changes shows great concern on their part. I'm sure in the end the real estate marketers will still find Craigslist a viable form of advertising. I only hope the current ease of use is preserved.
Todd Anderson
www.YouInParkCity.com
Submitted by Ralph M on June 9, 2008 - 6:37am.
Craiglist may be good for some real estate professionals, but last I knew is was not a full blown real estate site. We as real estate professionals should concentrate on making and utilizing real estate websites better and more efficient instead of throwing the listings into an All in one website. Many real estate professionals lose track of their actions of diluting the actual real estate websites with postings on all in one websites. I know things get tough and we want our clients properties sold, but many forget the long term consequences to the real estate industry itself. Stick to your profession and advertise on full blown real estate websites.. If you did, cragslist would not even be on Inmans today, woud it?
Submitted by Suzi Enders on June 9, 2008 - 7:28am.
Keep craigslist simple and easy to use. Home buyers are looking online at homes for sale with lots of pictures. And home sellers are looking for a agent to sell their house. Why would any agent not consider using craigslist as a viable source of free classified real estate advertisement even if they implement simplified html changes. www.ParadiseRealEstate.us
Submitted by G Dewald | Union Street Media on June 9, 2008 - 9:28am.
Back in April I waded through some of the posts at the Craigslist HTML limitations forum to help understand some of the differing sentiments of those who want HTML and those who don't.
One of the commenters at my blog had it pretty straight though: we're all marketers and we'll do what we can to market our wares (or in my case, to help my clients market their wares).
The trick with a beast like Craigslist is that it looks so much like old-fashioned classified ads but it functions much more like a community or social-networking site. Treating it like the classifieds is one way of running afoul of their community.
But what if it moves units? Who cares if upsets a few loudmouths right? Which is why folks who don't want HTML refer to those who use HTML as "spammers."
Great article and it is good to hear from the services who help RE pros use Craigslist.
G. Dewald | Union Street Media | USM Blog
Submitted by Rick Belben on June 9, 2008 - 9:50am.
I understand why they would be looking to do this but I still like the ease and look of being able to post a postlet or v flyer ad to craigslist. I also run plain text ads that link to my website for the pictures and other info. Unfortunately spammers can ruin a good thing.
Rick Belben
Amerivest Realty of Central Florida
Orlando Real Estate
Orlando MLS
Submitted by Jeff Turner on June 9, 2008 - 10:28am.
Matt, we changed our Craigslist HTML code the moment we got word of their proposed change. Our flyers are now completely compliant with their code restrictions.
Submitted by Bruce Hahn on June 9, 2008 - 10:46am.
American Homeowners Grassroots Alliance
I like Craigslist and have a real respect for agents and brokers who make the effort to put their listings in Craigslist's real estate section. They are willing to do a little more work for their sellers, and they recognize the growing importance of Craigslist (and the Internet in general) to real estate marketing. Craigslist is a growing real estate marketing presence in many areas, and its good to have one local site where buyers can see both a large number of broker and FSBO ads in the same place. With the market as slow as it is in many areas, no one can blame brokers or agents for using Craigslist's free ads to save on marketing costs.
One thing that could help buyers and brokers alike would be if Craigslist could establish a simple standard real estate grid that was technology friendly so that brokers could port over the data from their MLS listing with one stroke. That same grid would be used by FSBO sellers and remind them of important information they should always key in to help buyers. Craigslist searchability would also be improved as a result.
That said, simplicity is a Craigslist virtue, and that simplicity has not prevented Craigslist from becoming a growing presence in the marketplace. Brokers and FSBO sellers can always provide a link to a separate website for the home or directly to the listing on the broker's website where buyers can get more information.
The self-policing aspect of Craigslist is also a virtue. Car scams and other scams usually get flagged pretty quickly, as do the occasional real estate ads that include grossly innacurate words, such as stuffing the ad with the name of every town within 50 miles of the home's location.
To keep stuffing and the need for flagging to a minimum, Craigslist is also wise to continue to adopt any steps necessary to assure that bots can't continuously stuff ads for a home in one city into every other Craigslist real estate section in every other part of the country.
Submitted by Ralph M on June 9, 2008 - 11:55am.
Suzie, your missing the point of my post. I see you an others are also mls members. Currently, you pay an Abundant fee to have your own search engine on realtor.com and other mls search sites. By installing your property listing next to a fsbo on a free site DILUTES the importance on your realtor.com and other mls sites. By diluting the importance of a site your paying for, while bringing the attention to a site that is NOT a real estate site, is crazy. If you feel there is an importance to advertise your client’s property on a FREE site, then why do you PAY an ungodly fee to be a member of realtor.com? You are thinking short term and killing the hand that has fed you as a mls member. There is NO reason why ANY MLS member shall be paying to be in a membership while….have their properties on FREE websites.
Why should anyone pay to be a MLS member is their all going to install their info on NON-REALTOR sites????? To be called a realtor?
Where is your www.realtor.com url that your a member of?
Japanese way of thinking = Long term
American way of thinking = right now and I do not care about later.
CRAZY
Submitted by Ruthmarie Hicks on June 12, 2008 - 2:55am.
I think the problem goes back to spam. I use Craigslist to track down FSBOs. WHAT A MESS! People were spamming the same post over and over and over with very slight changes to the title. Real Estate "professionals" were the primary culprits. I was getting irritated to death because I had to go through post after post 2, 3, 4, and 5 times. I finally started flagging them for deletion. Beyond cluttering up Craigslist, this does wonders for our reputation with the general public. Trouble is no one told me that we were trying create a negative image.
Submitted by Todd Armstrong on June 19, 2008 - 1:57am.
Bottom Line: Buyers on the internet shopping for homes want INFORMATION and they want PICTURES of the property. The current Craigslist format of 4 pictures is usually insufficient and its low quality. Postlets and Vflyer.com, (my favorite) is the best way to post multiple high-quality pictures. I don't hear home buyers complaining. They love the Poslets and Vflyer ads. The more information and pictures you can provide, the better. I've test both and my vflyer ads get 75% more leads and calls than the plain old ads in Craigslist. I do agree you that each post should only be allowed to be posted once a week. More than that and you deserved to be flagged and removed.
Todd Armstrong
San Diego Realtor
Submitted by Paul Eastwood on July 13, 2008 - 11:16am.
Craigslist in clearly one of the most important tools for real estate marketing today. We use HTML extensively in our craigslist flyers and we are extremely careful to stick to the craigslist rules which are made up not just of the formal craigslist policy rules, but also the unwritten rules that are imposed by the craigslist community.
Craigslist is after all a community driven resource.
You can see what these look like at http://www.singlepropertysites.com/listings-on-craigslist.shtml
What craigslist is trying to do by limiting HTML is keep the resource available to all amateurs which I agree with - why should someone with HTML knowledge be able to gain a sales advantage in craigslist? This doesn't seem fair given what craigslist is all about. However, i don't think we will see HTML going away, what I think we'll see instead is the ability to make HTML posts more accessible, easier and automated for the general public.